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You will go down as the starw that broke this camel's back, Sarah.

Thank you.
-T
 

Thanks for the link to locate the quibla; I now know what direction to break wind in.
 

This is truely amazing.

There is know way this is some sort of coincidence. And if the architech had intended some sort of OVERT symbolism, he'd have said so outright.

This clown smugly assumed that the clever little joke he played on the victims of Fligt 93, their families, and all LOYAL, PATRIOTIC Americans would go completely undetected. He intended this as an inside slam on all of us, and if it weren't for you and a few others he'd have gotten away with it.

goodonya!
 

this is the funniest blog i have ever seen. what makes it even better is that you are serious about your rightous indignation. we the educated, thank you for all the laughs.
 

Brilliant work!

I'm glad you're blogging again.
 

Woo! My first mean comment.
Things are picking up around here. Thanks, anony.

And Hello Evilpundit, I think I've missed you most of all.
I was so happy to see that snarling catface!
 

Cool change the name from
Crescent of Embrace
to

Bow of Blood
 

Two reasons why you're wrong:

Reason #1
Reason #2
 

LA, reason # 2 isn't popping up for some reason. I'd like to see it, so I hope you come back and point to it.

About reasons # 1.
I think your emphasis on down to the millimeter precision is a total red-herring.

Praying Muslims, even the hi-tech ones, don't whup out a tape Measure to Mecca.

The turn themselves x degrees from the north and pray. With a GPS quibla calculator, they will still be given a rough guide to turn x degrees from the north.

A low-tech worshipper would use a qibla calculated on a chart for some nearby city, or would moon-sight. or even, in a pinch, simply turn to the north east.

The fact remains, by accident or design, the memorial is canted along the qibla.

If it's no big deal I'm sure the designer wouldn't mind rotating it about 10-20 degrees a to take away the uncomfortable association.
 

Reason #2, Sarah, is that you used 54 degrees (or at best, 54.4 degrees) based on the Qibla angle for Pittsburgh. The problem is that Somerset, PA, which is much closer to Shanksville, has a Qibla angle of 55.08 degrees.

A half a degree difference is pretty significant, considering, right?

(And Voice of Reason's theory doesn't work because it belies your entire argument about what a practicing Muslim would do...)
 

The trolls are worried ... it means you're on the right track.
 

What a funny guy you are, BTW did you notice that the moon also turns into a crescent!

Ban it now!
 

... and a troll pops up, right on schedule!

I swear I didn't pay "sonic's place" to post here.
 

Substantive debunking amounts to trolling? Interesting.
 

"Liberal Avenger" is a well-known troll on several right-wing sites.

"Sonic's place" is not well known, but obviously a troll.

If you choose to associate yourself with the likes of them, Auguste, that's your problem.

You did in fact attempt a substantial debunking, but you failed -- since Sarahw and friends demonstrated that regardless of the method used to calculate the Qibla, the crescent remains on that line.

Appeals to mere coincidence have no more credibility than a claim that the two planes hit the two towers by accident. Some things just don't happen by chance.
 

Seriously. How do you respond to the fact that there's nearly an entire degree between Pittsburgh and Somerset?
 

You're way behind the times, Auguste.

The argument has moved on to Politicalites.

In any case, your two points cancel each other out, and the margin of error of the small drawings we have probably exceeds one degree anyway.
 

Well, Auguste, I can't blame you for not knowing the complete history of the "Pittsburg qibla overlay" map, and it's relationship to other maps other people have created.
If you did you'd realize your objection was also something of a red herring, however.

Blogger made posting a lengthy history difficult that day, but you are right it should have been included here as an update.

It was posted elsewhere but that's no excuse.

D.Edgren's provision of crash sites (sacred ground) coordinates, and questions about the memorials orientation to North/South made me want to find out for myself. (I had thought really only to RULE OUT that the monument was aligned with the qibla)
I used Zombie's link to the memorial plan's pdf. I compared it to a Google Map of the Flight 93 crash site to make sure the axes of North, South, East and West were accurate.

It was apparent that the memorial was canted to the North East. This peaked my interest further, because prayers should be directed, according to most muslims and qibla calculators, to the North East. I guesstimated it was between 55 and 57 degrees.

This was worth a further look.
But at what point on the Map should one calculate the qibla? There is the "sacred ground" and then that grove of trees which appears somewhat centered between the arms of the crescent. (a feature that some have likened to the Islamic star.)
The center point of the arc which would complete the circle of the crescent, seemed best to me.

I found various qibla calculators.
I found a chart pre-made for Philly. It noted an angle of about 57 degrees from the North.

I found one where you could input coordinates, and the sacred ground coordinates (to the east and south of the center point of the arc) was a bit over 55 from the North.

And I found one that calculated the qibla from any major city in the USA. Pittsburg was as close as I could get. This calculator had the advantage, however, of providing a visual aid, the chart you see overlayed on my picture.

Since it was from an "official" Islamic site, no one could accuse me of inventing the angle or failing to label it, Or give me grief about the qibla line being to the south-east (as some reasonable, but wrong persons were arguing.)

I actually made the map to illustrate to doubters that the qibla was to the North East, the Crescent was rather closely aligned with it.

In the context of that discussion, everyone knew that Pittsburg is close but not the same as the crash site, and that the actual coordinates would be between 54 and 57 degrees.

Maps that followed used more exact crash site coordinates.

My map would actually be more "dead center" if the crash site coordinates were used. One of the criticisms of my map was that the angle was a little north of "perfection", which of course it would be and is.

As I said to liberal avenger and elsewhere:

Over-emphasis on perfection of a match within 1 or fewer degrees( with no accounting for scale) seems to miss the obvious.

If it's close to the qibla, it's too close. It's too close even if it's an accident and not design, considering all the other uncomfortable associations noted with islamic imagery.

However, the closer you look, the closer that crescent IS aligned with the qibla. It's very unfortunate that this was incorporated into the design.

Given the architect's background and emphasis on "visual poetry" in his work, it's hard to buy now that he was unaware of the connotations of such imagery.

But say all of this is just a total fluke - it's just too bad. This is one monument where heavy islamic imagery is totally innappropriate.

I'm sure if I prepare a bowlful of crescent rolls one will inadvertantly point along the qibla.
But then no one shouts stabs me with a steak knife shouting "Allahu Ackbar" as thy crash into the bread basket. As I fight them tooth and nal for my life and the life of everyone else at the dinner table. At least not recently
 

Sonic,

I didn't know someone built the moon to honor people who fought back to save themselves and others from Islamic Jihadis... Jihadis who killed them in the name of Islam, leaving a big flaming dent is space to mark the spot, with the memorial moon always turning into a red crescent on the anniversary of their murders.

Yes, I think I could line up against that.
 

IMO, it's much more likely that the Crescent is secretly intended to represent a "Gay Pride" Rainbow, to honor that one heroic passenger who was, ya know, gay. Of course the designers couldn't come right out and _say_ that, because of the predictable response from the wingnuts. So they tried to be subtle about it, and, well, there ya go.

As for the qibla angle, the inner and outer arcs of the "Crescent" don't line up. Measuring from the outer crescent (which, being composed of big honkin' trees, is the one that weill naturally draw they eye) and you're off my about 20 degrees. Looking at a topographical map, it seems pretty obvious that they're just following the general shape of the land, as good architects are wont to do.

BTW, the Crescent is not a particularely important symbol for most Muslims. Many groups use it for convenience, but it doesn't have any real religious significance, the way a Cross or Star of David does. It has more to do with nationalism than anything else. For the hard core Wahabbis, even that insignificant use of symbolism amounts to "Idolatry", and is to be shunned. In Afghanistan, that was one of the many excuses they used to stone people. IIRC, the stonees in that case were Red Crescent relief workers, ironically enough. (Alas, I can't find a cite for that case, so take with a grain of salt.)

Incidentally, the color red has no theological importance to Islam. Green, however, does. Waitaminute, that means it'll be a GREEN Crescent for nine months out of the year, maybe you were right all along. :-P
 

Thanks for your input, Mike.

So apparently objecting to a visual symbol of islam, at a spot where people died fighting Islamists, is because I hate the gays. I"m a gay hater.

Gay guys didn't kill all those people. A gay guy tried to save all those people and others besides, and I think pretty highly of him. If you can persuade the architect to put some rainbow foliage instead of a red crescent to remember him, woo and yay to that.

Look, I don't pretend to know if the architect incorporated symbols of islam deliberately into his memorial plan, like some sort of stealth goatse art. It would be awfully rude to do so, even trying to symbolize some kind of "healing of cultures"
idea.

My problem is that they are THERE, obvious, and this is one spot on earth pains should be taken to keep it out.

The architect explains the break in the large circle represents where "the circle was broken" by the flight of the plane as in plunged into the field. That imaginary cord
WAS indeed the flight path of the descending plane.

SO is the qibla thing just a coincidence? probably. I suppose it's possible he was trying to double up on his imagery.. Ill give hie the benefit of the doubt and assume the association was inadvertant.

It is there, however.

The qibla is about 55 degrees there. and unfortunately the arms of the cresent and the centered grove of trees designed for reflection and meditation are right on it.

Bisect the imaginary chord of the flight path between two tips of the crescent, and extend it to bisect the unbroken portion of the crescent, and it's smack on the quibla. Rough visual aid here


The extended inner and outer arcs are concentric; the architects lanscape plan (not the big pdf map) traces out circles, so I'm not sure what you're driving at there.

If you are saying the qibla is "off" 20 degrees because it doesn' go through the middle of the maple grove, you are
ignoring quite a bit of the crescent wall - (also planted with plants that bloom red in the fall.)

My concern is not really how the imagery got there. My concern is that it is there.

The "oh, by the way, the crescent isn't related to Islam" is just bullcrap. Yes, it is, AND it's associated with arab nationalism and politics, and that's one reason it's use is so objectionable. This is not the place to make poetical landscaping allusions to outreach from the arab world, or the palestinian cause. etc.

If you can't see why people would find it offensive to have allusions to the political and religious aspirations of the hijackers marking the spot where they successfully murdered people, there's no explaining it to you.

At minimum. I want the architects of this monument to state unequivocably and for all time that any islamic imagery in this design is pure happenstance and absolutely unintended and was never considered in any way, be it politically, poetically, or aesthetically nor incorporated into the design.

AND I want modifications to change the view from the air. That is, after all, the view the hijackers had as they claimed the spot for Allah.

The uncomfortable association may be coincidence, but there they are, and they distract from the heroes being honored.
 

You fucking wingnuts are too much. Not only can't you spell Pittsburgh properly, but you don't even have the angle of the qibla right because you're using the wrong city, and the "line" which you use to bisect the arms of the crescent doesn't even link both arms.

Never mind, too, the fact that the crescent is turned the wrong way (the Islamic crescent usually has the arms facing right) and that the supposed "proof"/morphing jpeg on Zombietime fills in quite a bit of territory that the architect didn't.

Naw... it's got to be part of some Giant Liberal/Islamofascist Plot that some evil landscape architect is involved in.
 

You obviously aren't aware of the history of that diagram, the context of its creation or its relationship to other maps using precise coordinates. I suggest you my peruse my comment to Auguste in this same thread.

FWIW my chief objections to this memorial have more to do with it's short shrift to the heroic conduct of the passengers in favor of "healing" and "bonding".

There's one by me using an overlay from the same qibla calulator, with an overlay from Somerset,( 55 degrees from north) if you want to look at that, in another post on this same blog.

You seem quite sure I believe that this must be an intentional design feature. I am not a "believer" in that.

Yet this feature is really there and really does, in full context, have inappropriate symbolic significance for this memorial.

Now why are YOU so excercised about including these (however unintentional) Islamic references and imagery in the memorial? Slight modification and a disavowal from the architect of any intent to include it, would probably make this go away.
 

So apparently objecting to a visual symbol of islam, at a spot where people died fighting Islamists, is because I hate the gays. I"m a gay hater.

This is what I get for being too subtle with my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious from now on, 'kay?

Imagine, if you will, the architects coming right out and saying "Look at the pretty Homo Rainbow we have so thoughtfully included in this here memorial. You're welcome". The outcry from the Religious Reich would be deafening, would it not? Compare this hypothetical outcry with the actual shrillness of certain bloggers. I'm not sure how much more obvious I can make this parallel.

Gay guys didn't kill all those people. A gay guy tried to save all those people and others besides, and I think pretty highly of him. If you can persuade the architect to put some rainbow foliage instead of a red crescent to remember him, woo and yay to that.

It wouldn't be that hard. Different maple species have different colored fall foliage. Red, orange, and yellow are obvious ones, I've seen more than a few purple ones, and even a few that were almost blue. Find some late changers that'll stay green longer than the rest, and voila!

The architect explains the break in the large circle represents where "the circle was broken" by the flight of the plane as in plunged into the field. That imaginary cord
WAS indeed the flight path of the descending plane.

Lovely, then the 'qibla' angle really was a coincidence all along, case closed.

The extended inner and outer arcs are concentric; the architects lanscape plan (not the big pdf map) traces out circles, so I'm not sure what you're driving at there.

Look at the outer crescent. Doesn't line up with the inner one, does it? Measure the angle, and you'll see it points directly at the "hall of windchimes" portion of the monument.

The "oh, by the way, the crescent isn't related to Islam" is just bullcrap.

"Related" != "Symbolizes". Prior to the Turkish conquest of the Middle East, the crescent had no association with Islam at all. Period. The Turks got it from the Byzantines, who used it as a symbol for their empire. They got it from the Greeks, who used it as a symbol for Diana, the Moon Goddess, who was patrom of the city of Byzantium. Because of that Pagan origin, the real hard core fundamentalists consider use of that symbol to be idolatry. The jackoffs who you're so worried about accidentally honoring, are the ones who are least likely to feel honored.

But hey, what do _I_ know, I'm only a prefessional military intelligence soldier who's spent years being trained on this stuff, I don't know what gave me the idea that I knew what I was talking about. :-P

If you can't see why people would find it offensive to have allusions to the political and religious aspirations of the hijackers marking the spot where they successfully murdered people, there's no explaining it to you.

I'm just soooo insensitive. I should spend more time worrying about how people might find things offensive, and if I accidentally do offend someone, I should apologize profusely and disavow whatever it was I was doing. This isn't political correctness either, nosiree.

At minimum. I want the architects of this monument to state unequivocably and for all time that any islamic imagery in this design is pure happenstance and absolutely unintended and was never considered in any way, be it politically, poetically, or aesthetically nor incorporated into the design.

AND I want modifications to change the view from the air. That is, after all, the view the hijackers had as they claimed the spot for Allah.

_I_ want them to stick to their guns, hew to their artistic vision, and stand up to those who would attempt to bully them, like a real American would. Maybe that's just me.

"The uncomfortable association may be coincidence, but there they are, and they distract from the heroes being honored."

I think that this continued obsessing over coincidence is much more distracting.
 

Interesting though that in the islamic world the crescent is always used OPENing to the east or northeast, or in the case of Mauritania's flag the north. In any case, it never opens to the southwest, as the memorial crescent does. So what we have is a BACKWARDS crescent, if anything. Now what might that symbolize?
 

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